Where were you when it mattered?
Nov. 15th, 2004 01:45 pm![[personal profile]](https://www.dreamwidth.org/img/silk/identity/user.png){kind=small}
richardf8I've been coming across lots of diatribes like this since the election.
OK. You're Liberal. You're smart. And you're Christian. And you're tired of hearing how those ignorant, bigoted red-state Christian podunks got us four more years of Bush. You don't want to be lumped in with them, and you don't want Christianity characterized as a religion of ignorance, hatred and bigotry. So you start screaming at us liberals to stop the hatred.
Well I've got some news for you Sunshine. You're responsible.
That's right. Because instead of claiming your faith, you pull mealy-mouthed crap like this: As a lesbian Catholic, I have not spoken from my religious views on LJ.
It raises the question "why the hell not?" Why are you allowing only those people who invoke Jesus to rationalize their bigotry to be the ones speaking from their "religious views." And how DARE you turn on the rest of us when your silence has let them steal your God.
So, let me teach you a new phrase: "I am a Christian. Jerry Falwell and Pat Robertson do not speak for me, and they do not speak for the Jesus that I know."
Try repeating it, backing it up with relevant scripture, and showing the world how the haters have rejected the moral values of the New Testament. It's not that hard. If Mad Magazine can do it, surely a smart, liberal, Christian can.
It might take a little time to win us over though. You've let Falwell and Robertson "brand" Christianity for a little too long, so we associate it with the product that they're selling. And if you start now, it's still going to be a little too little, a little to late - because we're all going to suffer from this sin of omission for the next four years.
In the meanwhile, stop returning friendly fire. If you point your guns in the right direction, you'll find us dug in beside you in no time.
OK. You're Liberal. You're smart. And you're Christian. And you're tired of hearing how those ignorant, bigoted red-state Christian podunks got us four more years of Bush. You don't want to be lumped in with them, and you don't want Christianity characterized as a religion of ignorance, hatred and bigotry. So you start screaming at us liberals to stop the hatred.
Well I've got some news for you Sunshine. You're responsible.
That's right. Because instead of claiming your faith, you pull mealy-mouthed crap like this: As a lesbian Catholic, I have not spoken from my religious views on LJ.
It raises the question "why the hell not?" Why are you allowing only those people who invoke Jesus to rationalize their bigotry to be the ones speaking from their "religious views." And how DARE you turn on the rest of us when your silence has let them steal your God.
So, let me teach you a new phrase: "I am a Christian. Jerry Falwell and Pat Robertson do not speak for me, and they do not speak for the Jesus that I know."
Try repeating it, backing it up with relevant scripture, and showing the world how the haters have rejected the moral values of the New Testament. It's not that hard. If Mad Magazine can do it, surely a smart, liberal, Christian can.
It might take a little time to win us over though. You've let Falwell and Robertson "brand" Christianity for a little too long, so we associate it with the product that they're selling. And if you start now, it's still going to be a little too little, a little to late - because we're all going to suffer from this sin of omission for the next four years.
In the meanwhile, stop returning friendly fire. If you point your guns in the right direction, you'll find us dug in beside you in no time.
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no subject
Date: 2004-11-15 08:31 pm (UTC)You know, it used to be there was an active religious left in this country. It gave us people like Jimmy Carter and Dr. Martin Luther King, Jr.
You'd have a hard time finding liberals who had "anti-Christian" feelings about people like that. Now would be a good time for that strain of American Christianity to rise up again, and announce, loud and clear, that it has a pretty good idea what Jesus would do, and it probably wouldn't involve bombs, upper-income tax cuts or raging homophobia.
no subject
Date: 2004-11-15 08:38 pm (UTC)And that's the leaders of the religion doing this. Not the fringe whackos. How do you fight that other than leaving and forming yet another religion that claims to know what the Bible really means?
no subject
Date: 2004-11-15 08:35 pm (UTC)If you do not support these things, you should not be a member of the organization. It is very possible for you to say you believe in God without throwing the Catholic / Christian / whatever label on yourself.
This isn't a case of a few fringe whackos giving the church a bad name. This is the hierarchy setting the rules that apparently endorses these activities. If you support them, you support their belief system. It's really just that simple.
no subject
Date: 2004-11-15 09:02 pm (UTC)2) Christianity APART from the Catholic Church is far from being a monoculture. Fundamentalist Christianity taken at its word requires the practitioner to read and interpret the scripture for themselves. Not many people have the intellectual curiosity to do that, and prefer to watch the 700 Club. Those that do may not remain in the fold very long
3) There are many, many, Christian denominations which are overtly liberal, some even on matters like abortion and gay marriage.
no subject
Date: 2004-11-15 09:15 pm (UTC)I believe that if people honestly disagree with what their leaders are doing, they need to do something about it. Don't give the church that support in numbers when a poll asks what religion you are. Don't tithe to the church. Encourage your local leaders to speak out against the hatred that the hierarchy is spreading. That's just for starters.
no subject
Date: 2004-11-23 07:06 am (UTC)That's just not a logical argument. It's not like there is a hierarchy that all these churches answer to. Most of them are completely independent of one another.
no subject
Date: 2004-11-15 10:25 pm (UTC)I'm not sure if I am among those who should take responsibility for Kerry's loss. I talked some of how I and others saw a Kerry vote as a better choice for Catholic values -- Bush doesn't seem pro-life in the most literal sense, and he certainly doesn't favor the poor as much -- but I was only so vocal about politics at all this year. Mostly I talked about it to people of similar bent. (By contrast, I got into more than one debate with a stranger at the start of the war.)
no subject
Date: 2004-11-15 11:59 pm (UTC)A "Christian" is someone who believes the basics of Christianity--that Jesus was the messiah, that he was crucified and resurrected, etc. Seems to me that anyone who finds spiritual value in those beliefs has every right to those teachings.
Not to mention that I can certainly see the appeal of loving your neighbor, turning the other cheek, and doing unto others.
I don't think you have any right to tell people who believe those things, and yet don't endorse the behavior of people at the top of certain denominations, to renounce Jesus. I mean, please.
no subject
Date: 2004-11-16 12:22 am (UTC)no subject
Date: 2004-11-16 12:27 am (UTC)First, nowhere did I say you had to "renounce Jesus." Please stop trying to put words in my mouth.
Next, please re-read this part of the post you replied to:
"It is very possible for you to say you believe in God without throwing the Catholic / Christian / whatever label on yourself."
It seems that you've fallen for the bullshit of Christianity, the belief that you HAVE to label yourself as a Christian. That only a Christian can worship God / Jesus. During my religious phase, I didn't label myself as any religion. I just said that I believed that God existed.
Not to mention that I can certainly see the appeal of loving your neighbor, turning the other cheek, and doing unto others.
And I can do that without applying a deity to it.
no subject
Date: 2004-11-16 02:29 am (UTC)First, nowhere did I say you had to "renounce Jesus."
I'm afraid that 99 percent of the civilized world is not as into redefining words and squabbling over semantics as you. A Christian is, simply put, someone who accepts Jesus as their savior and all that. If you walk around declaring that you aren't a Christian, almost literally everyone will assume you mean you don't do that.
So are you saying people who belive in Jesus but are also tolerant liberals ought to describe their religion not with the convenient, existing term, but with a convoluted explanation? That's unrealistic, inconvenient for them, and annoying for anyone who meets them at parties.
It seems that you've fallen for the bullshit of Christianity, the belief that you HAVE to label yourself as a Christian.
Words mean things. That's what that particular word means. I believe the entire point of this thread is that a particular subspecies of Christian has created a widespread impression that it means something much more specific, and only refers to them, and that the non-fascist Christian community needs to do a better job of making it known that that isn't the case.
Maybe the world would be better off if you were appointed Arbiter of Word Definitions. I cannot say. But you haven't been yet, so...we're stuck with the terms and definitions we've got.
no subject
Date: 2004-11-16 02:55 am (UTC)You insulted me the moment you put words in my mouth because you couldn't properly refute what I said. Be happy I didn't go with what I originally wanted to say.
I'm afraid that 99 percent of the civilized world is not as into redefining words and squabbling over semantics as you.
You must be in that other 1%, because you're basing your entire argument on claiming that I said something I didn't. Even when I corrected you, you're still trying to write it off as "redefining words."
A Christian is, simply put, someone who accepts Jesus as their savior and all that.
So are you saying that only Christians can believe in Jesus? If so, you're in for a rude awakening.
Maybe the world would be better off if you were appointed Arbiter of Word Definitions.
And maybe the world would be better off if you weren't such a pompous jackass. Come back when you decide to stop trying to put words in my mouth.
no subject
Date: 2004-11-16 03:19 am (UTC)===|==============/ Level Head
no subject
Date: 2004-11-23 07:04 am (UTC)no subject
Date: 2004-11-23 01:15 pm (UTC)If you don't beleive in what they are doing, why would you be a member? It's certainly possible to believe in and worship God without being a Christian.
no subject
Date: 2004-11-15 11:08 pm (UTC)I think it's a bit of an overstatement to say that individual Liberal Christians are responsible for the actions of their entire religeon. One would not say that moderate Muslims are responsible for the actions of Radical Muslims. One would not say that individual Liberals responsible for all the actions of all Liberals.
no subject
Date: 2004-11-15 11:56 pm (UTC)But these are people who by and large believe in Liberalism, and are fully capable of making a Christian Case for Liberalism.
But only now, after the battle's lost and won, are they crawling out of the woodwork to say "hey, that's not ME," when the so-called "Christian Values" that were a factor in this election become the object of liberal derision.
I just guess I think that one has a responsibility to talk from one's religious views if one holds them.
no subject
Date: 2004-11-23 07:09 am (UTC)no subject
Date: 2004-11-23 07:03 am (UTC)